Author Topic: Convergence of Do Nothing and Non Dualistic AWA  (Read 2084 times)

Arpan

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Convergence of Do Nothing and Non Dualistic AWA
« on: January 02, 2018, 07:15:24 PM »
@ Edd: This is in continuation from our discussion at:
http://www.personalpowermeditation.com/i-am-breath-hybrid-meditation/#comment-100301

1. Do you find this progression in my own sitting practice(Do Nothing) to be converging with AWA ?:
Lost in thought-> Become aware of thoughts -> Become Aware that I am aware of thoughts(there are layers within this too).

2. Btw, this description of AWA by you suited me the best:

http://www.personalpowermeditation.com/forum2/concentration-absorption/will-wetwaterdrop-phase-out-of-reality-find-out-next-week-on-dragon-ball-z!/msg339/#msg339

This is what I seem to feel in Do Nothing now, which was absent in Dualistic AWA. Is this how you would interpret LBs Non-Dualistic AWA ?

3. I have an apprehension though, that if I follow your method in (2) intentionally(rather than like now when it happens on its own as a result of Do Nothing), I might endup doing lots of body-awareness. Is that a real concern ? Or is one bound to peel deeper if one is not deliberately focussed on the body ?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 07:34:18 PM by Arpan »

Illuminatus

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Re: Convergence of Do Nothing and Non Dualistic AWA
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2018, 08:42:12 PM »
@ Edd: This is in continuation from our discussion at:
http://www.personalpowermeditation.com/i-am-breath-hybrid-meditation/#comment-100301

1. Do you find this progression in my own sitting practice(Do Nothing) to be converging with AWA ?:
Lost in thought-> Become aware of thoughts -> Become Aware that I am aware of thoughts(there are layers within this too).

I find this hard to relate to because I have not experienced "thoughts" during meditation in the sense commonly understood by people (words and pictures) for a very long time. As soon as my eyes settle I have no "thoughts"; but what I do have is the popping static, the "energy", of pre-thought forms, plus varying degrees of luminescence (so, light, usually golden, glowing at various intensities). However, I do retain strong judgment as to whether the energy is preferential ("nice" or "not nice").

This ever-present golden light began just over a year ago. At first, ANY directive meditation I did very quickly increased the brightness of the light (which would also increase its "niceness") and often it would become completely bright and all-encompassing and suck me straight into jhana (and, a couple of memorable times, into repeating cycles of insight each ending in cessation). I assumed all this was part of "kundalini development", a continuation of what had begun a year or two beforehand, and that it would finish off my development in its own time.

However, about halfway through the year, every time I meditated, the light getting brighter would begin to correlate with EXTREME facial tightness, particularly in the cheeks. This felt like someone reaching their hands into my mouth and pulling apart my jaw and my head. At first I could ride it out and enter jhana. But it just got worse to the point where meditating even a few seconds sometimes set it off and I'd have to stop. Then, worst of all, it began happening even just in response to heightened emotions in everyday life!

This went on and on for months and had me at the most depressed I'd been in a long while (though even then I did not feel depression in the same way I did pre-meditation, showing that meditation can permanently decrease perception of suffering). Finally I went into I-feeling meditation and it cured my facial tightness problem completely within a week. That's pretty nuts, right? It cured some other issues too which I won't go into now.

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2. Btw, this description of AWA by you suited me the best:

http://www.personalpowermeditation.com/forum2/concentration-absorption/will-wetwaterdrop-phase-out-of-reality-find-out-next-week-on-dragon-ball-z!/msg339/#msg339

This is what I seem to feel in Do Nothing now, which was absent in Dualistic AWA. Is this how you would interpret LBs Non-Dualistic AWA ?

I am being very careful not to make assumptions about his experience (or yours, or anyone else's). I am simply writing what I'm experiencing and taking little ideas here and there from other people. So, I will refuse to interpret LB's nondualistic AWA. :)

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3. I have an apprehension though, that if I follow your method in (2) intentionally(rather than like now when it happens on its own as a result of Do Nothing), I might endup doing lots of body-awareness. Is that a real concern ? Or is one bound to peel deeper if one is not deliberately focussed on the body ?

Well, I did a new reply to that thread, which describes how the I-feeling whizzes around and identifies with all sorts of processes such as the body. However in my practice there have been tangible "stop moments" where the experience seems to be identified with itself, for itself. It becomes a "whole" and there are no "parts". I think it defies verbal description but, experientially, it speaks for itself when it happens. LB's thoughts here would be useful. I am still taking some cues from him as to what we're shooting for here.

Luminous Bliss

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Re: Convergence of Do Nothing and Non Dualistic AWA
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2018, 09:06:41 PM »
"However in my practice there have been tangible "stop moments" where the experience seems to be identified with itself"

This happens to me too.

I am getting a lot of all kinds of experiences during and after sitting practices, but as awesome as they really are they just come and go, sometimes for a very short time and sometimes for very long.

But to be honest it doesn't matter so much, the true goal is to realize the self, there have been plenty of cases where one doens't have any experience during his path and one day self realization occurs, so it doesn't necessary mean it is a sign of getting any closer or not, but if it's there I enjoy it :)

You know, unlike breathing meditation and this whole jhana shit, here the AWA practice is very very forgiving no matter how noisy your mind is.
What I mean by that is,
Before when I was practicing Breath Meditation, I really had to set up the right condition to enter it... I had to control my feelings, my thoughts, when shit started to happen even a little sense of excitement would put me some or many steps back.

But with this practice I am just free :)
I said it before and I will say it again, I am very skeptical that breath meditation with jhana or not will make self realization occur.

I have researched and talked with so many people about their realization and it all came down to self inquiry in the end...

Self Inquiry (AWA) has simply the highest rate and the fastest rate to get enlightenment quickly...

A long this path there are many surprises, one moment you are angry, the next moment suddenly overwhelming sense of bliss and peace gets you... or you wake up from sleep in a so or so state.

I don't think we should compare and make out so many details on the practice itself.
It's a very simple practice and it should stay that way.

About the duality and non-duality part, it's not a practice nor is it my tech...

It's just a pointer to set the duality mind behind and let it slip into non-duality.

Now let's all just enjoy our selfs :)

Arpan

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Re: Convergence of Do Nothing and Non Dualistic AWA
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2018, 01:06:45 AM »
@ Edd:
but what I do have is the popping static, the "energy", of pre-thought forms,

This matches most of my experience. Coherent "Words" and "Images" has always been too concrete an expression for me. They used to occur only when I was really absent minded. Now, they are usually a temporary fluff that quickly reduces to a subconscious hummmming(though it has quite a presence very often). However, I wrote that cycle more as a general progression for a novice(as I experienced), not the exact desctiption of my current state where I become aware of myself watching mind-movement(thoughts would be a strong word)

Well, I did a new reply to that thread, which describes how the I-feeling whizzes around and identifies with all sorts of processes such as the body. However in my practice there have been tangible "stop moments" where the experience seems to be identified with itself, for itself. It becomes a "whole" and there are no "parts". I think it defies verbal description but, experientially, it speaks for itself when it happens.
Yes, I read it, it tallies my own experience.
Re: Stop Moments: Exact description of the amorphous quality of "I" that I experience, leading to an undescribable-yet-concretely-whole stop moment.

Important Realization since last few days:
I think my mistake lay in this: I had some egoistic knot that if an "experienced meditator like me who can fall into some level of bliss almost within a minute anytime" settles on "I", it cannot be the "Body" or some superficial level of mental processes, it must be at or near to the depth I descend into during my best Do Nothing sessions. This, made me instinctively strain to "hold" my attention to the "I" feeling at a subtler level, especially in cases where it was trying to plop back to a superficial surface level in my judgement.
Not controlling this process is what made it hang out longer at physical level, sometimes even legs("ah how primitive, should atleast be head or chest", says my judgemental mind), made me apprehensive of "perpetual body awareness". I guess, it's best to give it full freedom as a process in and of itsef, and not have any expectation of "special treatment" due to being "experienced" in meditation.

  Then, worst of all, it began happening even just in response to heightened emotions in everyday life!

This went on and on for months and had me at the most depressed I'd been in a long while
Though I have rarely been deppressed, I do relate a lot the facial tightness you mentioned. As I mentioned on the PPM blog:
"I never had a whole body fascia problem, though I did have issues with facial fascia, woth lots of head tension and facial twitching in moments of extreme concentration or overwhelming emotion. It was purely random and would strike without warning, and sometimes not atall. Due to this, I was extremely wary of having an emotional reaction in front of anybody due to this sometimes, especially in a confrontational situation. NDM solved it like a charm, in quite a similar fashion as you mention: not chopping the experience up analytically."

@ LB:
I am getting a lot of all kinds of experiences during and after sitting practices, but as awesome as they really are they just come and go, sometimes for a very short time and sometimes for very long.

But to be honest it doesn't matter so much,
-------
You know, unlike breathing meditation and this whole jhana shit, here the AWA practice is very very forgiving no matter how noisy your mind is.
-----------
But with this practice I am just free :)
-------------
A long this path there are many surprises, one moment you are angry, the next moment suddenly overwhelming sense of bliss and peace gets you... or you wake up from sleep in a so or so state.

This effectively summarizes, why the whole effort of Directive Meditation repelled me from the get go. It just never felt intuitively right to me and the quotes by LB I selected here define what I have always looked for in my own practice. Especially, being in India and seeing so many very simple and humble people progress in all parameters of self-awakening with simple things like devotion, sitting silently in "holy atmosphere" of ancient temples etc., I felt that True and Natural Self should be as easy for us to reach as water is for fish. Infact, it is the "extreme obviousness" of water to the fish that defines the difficulty of Self Awakening. This view was further emboldened when my modern educated "full of myself" self, found some erudite yogis I knew(of past and present) voice similar things.There were plenty of examples from Hindu mythology as well as real life where the selfish(usually Titans/Asuras in mythology) would do terrific concentrative yoga to develop great powers and such jazz, with an eye on enjoyment, and fall back to a worse state, while simplicity nd sincerity at heart would make for permanent progress, be it a king or a begger. In part, observance of this shift in PPM's direction is what finally pulled me in to comment there for the first time.

I have come a full philosophical circle, as Zen says:
"Before enlightenment:
Chop wood, carry water.

After enlightenment:
Chop wood, carry water." :-)

Thank you both!
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 09:01:45 AM by Arpan »

Arpan

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Re: Convergence of Do Nothing and Non Dualistic AWA
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2018, 10:57:48 PM »
LB posted this link in his Q and A thread:
http://sri-summairu.blogspot.co.il/

This is the first Western resource that finally settled Do Nothing vs Self Inquiry for me in the way only traditional gurus were allowing. To reproduce some quotes from Summa Iru here: [bold text inserted by me]

Summa Iru is an aphorism in Tamil consisting of two words:
"Just Be", "Simply Be", "Only This", "Keep Quiet", "Full Stop", "Be Still", etc.

[Do Nothing] If you're looking for an instruction, the simplicity of Summa Iru is being overlooked. [Self Inquiry] As an instruction most Sages offer self-inquiry.

[Do Nothing]
Summa Iru points to a simple seeing of the only Truth. And upon seeing this One Truth, that which "processes complexity" drops away.

Summa Iru has nothing to do with what you do nor what you don't do and has nothing to do with what you're being nor what you're not being. Summa Iru is the simplest teaching, simpler than simple, but it's often the most subtle, subtler than subtle since it's commonly overlooked.



Question:

"If the mind cannot get beyond itself and interferes with everything it comes in contact with then how to stop the mind?"

Summairu's Answer:

[Do Nothing]
Simply don't mind. Don't mind if thoughts are happening or not and don't mind if you're minding if thoughts are there. Don't mind if you're understanding or not and don't mind if you're trying to understand. Don't mind what you're feeling and don't mind if you're not wanting to feel what you're feeling. Don't mind if you're experiencing peace or not and don't mind if you're seeking to experience peace. Don't mind anything, even if you're minding then don't mind that. Don't mind your mind means don't mind if you're minding your mind.

That's the freedom and peace which surpasses understanding since it's a freedom which doesn't need to feel a certain way, a freedom that doesn't need anything to be a certain way, a freedom that doesn't even need to be freed. That's freedom itself and it points to that which is already and always free.

It's all so very easy and simple, just see that whatever is being, that's what is. Absolutely whatever it is, what is minding? The mind is minding the mind, so don't mind that, even if you're minding that then don't mind anything that is being minded.

This cannot be done as an instruction, you can only be clear about the processes of the mind, which is instantly laughable. It gives the mind nothing to do (Laughs) and you see that what you are doesn't mind simply because it's only the mind that minds the mind. How loopy. Quite literally the mind loops back onto itself; it imagines a problem with what is and then seeks to find a way out of that imagined problem, but there is no problem, just the spontaneity of the mind functioning as it does. That functionality is only a seeming problem to the mind.

Question:
"What if I can't just "not mind" when the mind does mind? Can I question the stressful thoughts the mind is minding?"

Indeed, this is why I say that this pointing cannot be taken as an instruction because anything you do will be the same mind which caused the seeming problem in the first place and now the mind is seeking to do something about the seeming problem of itself.

To the mind, it cares about the difference between a stressful thought and a happy thought, so it thinks there is something to do about the difference, even though the only difference is in the mind. Which is fine, but if you don't mind that it does this or not, then it eventually stops finding solutions to the problem of itself. And that's the true answer.

Hence, this has to be clearly seen, somehow, and upon seeing this clearly then any doing (even questioning stressful thoughts) doesn't make much sense.

[Do Nothing]
The key is to give the mind nothing to do, by simply not minding what is done or not done. Not minding if you question the stressful thoughts or not. Not minding if the mind makes a difference between thoughts, not minding if thoughts happen or not, etc.

[Self Inquiry]
Of course, if this simplicity is too difficult to be clear about, which is way too subtle for most to actually be clear about it in an irreversible manner, for whatever reason it's rare, then offering an instruction about what to do, I would also suggest inquiring (questioning) since it's the next best option because it's designed to get at the root of the thought.

Inquiring into "who minds this stressful thought?" is designed to get at the root, since it flips the mind back onto itself and you discover that you don't actually mind. Mind minds when it's not questioned simply because the mind has been habitually imagining itself to be real and true.

Question:

"Can you explain in simple terms what you mean by "Just Be" (Summa Iri) and also the power in such a seeing? Why is such a seeing so rare?"

Summairu's Answer:

[Do Nothing]
Just be, whatever happens just be still and keep quiet. Give up the intention to keep quiet and just be still. Not trying to be still is what stillness is. Not attempting to just be is how just being is being.

This is not something you can do, it's not even a state of being, it's what is and what you are. What is can be none other than what is. It's simpler than simple. What could be more simple than just being and letting whatever is being to be? Can you stop being? Why complicate it?

Most cannot hear such simplicity, so they move on to complex things. People look for what works for them based on seeing results. Stop all intention for any results. The power of simplicity is that simplicity takes over your being."
---------
[Do Nothing]
"Simply don't mind. Don't mind if thoughts are happening or not and don't mind if you're minding if thoughts are there. Don't mind if you're understanding or not and don't mind if you're trying to understand. Don't mind what you're feeling and don't mind if you're not wanting to feel what you're feeling. Don't mind if you're experiencing peace or not and don't mind if you're seeking to experience peace. Don't mind anything, even if you're minding then don't mind that. Don't mind your mind means don't mind if you're minding your mind. "
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 09:21:22 AM by Arpan »